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Why  153  Fish  in  John  21:11  ?

Sections :

Introduction
Church Fathers : Sts. Jerome, Augustine, Gregory the Great, Cyril A.
No Reason ?
Why Church Fathers’ Answers Could Not Be John’s
Problems with Square Root of 3 Answer
Context Points to the Answer : An Explanation That Works
Archimedes : Context of Time and Place
Greeks and Wisdom
Fish
Calculating the Measure of the Fish
John’s Purpose
Why Church Fathers Did Not (could not?) Give John’s Idea
Conclusion

 

Archimedes and The Greeks and Their Works

 

The following article gives more additional information on Archimedes and about the following two questions besides what is already presented in the main article about John 21:11 and the meaning of “153 fish.”

First Question

If John’s reference to “153 fish” was a sure reference to the wisdom of the Greeks as exemplified by Archimedes in his Proposition 3 and with John’s pastoral objective of designating that all wisdom comes from Jesus who is the Son of God, then why do the early Church Fathers not recognize and state this connection ?

A second question.

Is there a reasonable likelihood that the Greeks of Ephesus at the time of John’s writing would have had knowledge of Archimedes new method for calculating the value of π in the Measurement of a Circle, Proposition 3?

This article below on Archimedes relates how his work was not as well-known as Euclid’s. Euclid’s book Elements was a systematic work that began with the basic principles that progressed into deeper mathematics.  It was a compilation of others’ works.  It was a primer for education.    On the other hand, many of Archimedes’ works were on specialized topics.  And so, Archimedes’ work itself was not as well published as Euclid’s.

The inventions and the glory of Greek mathematical wisdom were enormous.

Notes from Wikipedia

Euclid's Elements

… Euclid's Elements has been referred to as the most successful[5][6] and influential textbook ever written. Being first set in type in Venice in 1482, it is one of the very earliest mathematical works to be printed after the invention of the printing press and was estimated by Carl Benjamin Boyer to be second only to the Bible in the number of editions published,[7]  … For centuries, when the quadrivium was included in the curriculum of all university students, knowledge of at least part of Euclid's Elements was required of all students. Not until the 20th century, by which time its content was universally taught through other school textbooks, did it cease to be considered something all educated people had read.[9]

Archimedes of Syracuse (c. 287 BC – c. 212 BC)

was an Ancient Greek mathematician …

Archimedes died during the Siege of Syracuse when he was killed by a Roman soldier despite orders that he should not be harmed. …

Unlike his inventions, the mathematical writings of Archimedes were little known in antiquity. Mathematicians from Alexandria read and quoted him, but the first comprehensive compilation was not made until c. 530 AD by Isidore of Miletus in Byzantine Constantinople …

The relatively few copies of Archimedes' written work that survived through the Middle Ages were an influential source of ideas for scientists during the Renaissance, [6] ….

During his youth, Archimedes may have studied in Alexandria, Egypt, where Conon of Samos and Eratosthenes of Cyrene were contemporaries. He referred to Conon of Samos as his friend  … 

According to the popular account given by Plutarch, Archimedes was contemplating a mathematical diagram when the city was captured. A Roman soldier commanded him to come and meet General Marcellus but he declined, saying that he had to finish working on the problem. The soldier was enraged by this, and killed Archimedes with his sword. ... 

The last words attributed to Archimedes are "Do not disturb my circles", a reference to the circles in the mathematical drawing that he was supposedly studying when disturbed by the Roman soldier. This quote is often given in Latin as "Noli turbare circulos meos," …

Writings

The works of Archimedes were written in Doric Greek, the dialect of ancient Syracuse. The written work of Archimedes has not survived as well as that of Euclid, and seven of his treatises are known to have existed only through references made to them by other authors. Pappus of Alexandria mentions On Sphere-Making and another work on polyhedra, while Theon of Alexandria quotes a remark about refraction from the now-lost Catoptrica.[b] During his lifetime, Archimedes made his work known through correspondence with the mathematicians in Alexandria. The writings of Archimedes were first collected by the Byzantine Greek architect Isidore of Miletus (c. 530 AD), while commentaries on the works of Archimedes written by Eutocius in the sixth century AD helped to bring his work a wider audience. …

Surviving works

This is a short work consisting of three propositions. It is written in the form of a correspondence with Dositheus of Pelusium, who was a student of Conon of Samos.
(see note below on the numbering of the propositions.)

 

Although Arhcimedes lived in Syracuse, that was part of what was then considered Magna Graecia (Latin meaning “Great Greece”) or Greek: Μεγάλη Ἑλλάς, Megálē Hellás

 

 

See Map


 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conon_of_Samos

Conon was born on Samos, Ionia, and possibly died in Alexandria, Ptolemaic Egypt, where he was court astronomer to Ptolemy III Euergetes.

So, we can see that as we examine cultures outside of the area of Greece Archimedes text would have become less known.  Surely, they would have known about his final conclusions on the value of π, but the Church Fathers may not have had his actual text so that could see the importance that the number 153 played in his calculations.

As for the second question, the Greeks in Iona, in Ehpesus would have placed a high value on knowing and having Archimedes actual text.  The 250 to 300 year time span between Archimedes writing and that of John was sufficient for Archimedes work to have been circulated to the Greek areas. At the time of John the Greek culture in Ephesus would have still been strong and not yet given way to the influence of the Romans.  While by the time the Church Fathers wrote the Greek influence would not have been as strong in the other areas of the Roman Empire where they lived.

The Greeks had ruled the whole Mediterranean Sea.

Ancient Greek culture was probably at its peak about the time of John writing his Gospel.  The Romans, the Latins, had ruled since the time of Julius Caesar, but the Greeks probably thought of them as just an occupational force. The culture was still Greek in Ephesus.

Why was Archimedes so important?

To understand this we need to understand ancient Greek culture.  Above all else the Greeks esteemed philosophy, mathematics and wisdom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mathematics

Greek mathematicians lived in cities spread over the entire Eastern Mediterranean, from Italy to North Africa, but were united by culture and language. The word "mathematics" itself derives from the ancient Greek μάθημα (mathema), meaning “subject of instruction”. … One of the most important characteristics of the Pythagorean order was that it maintained that the pursuit of philosophical and mathematical studies was a moral basis for the conduct of life. Indeed, the words philosophy (love of wisdom) and mathematics (that which is learned) are said to have been coined by Pythagoras. From this love of knowledge came many achievements. It has been customarily said that the Pythagoreans discovered most of the material in the first two books of Euclid's Elements.

The Greek’s pride was in their wisdom.

Every Culture worship something or at least that idealizes something

Every culture has a cult. I mean this in the good sense of the word. Archimedes was more influential and was a greater hero than the Apollo mission astronauts were to Americans in the 1970’s.  The Greek culture in the time of John would have esteemed Archimedes more than our current culture looks up to Albert Einstein.

Archimedes and his use of the number 153 was more important to the Greeks than Albert Einstein is to the Americans, and so we can reasonably conclude Archimedes work was well known among the Geeks, as Albert Einstein and his formula E=MC2,   is known to the Americans.

Surely some will argue that many of Archimedes other accomplishments were more profound than his work on Pi.  Archimedes himself valued his favorite mathematical proof on a sphere and a cylinder of the same height and diameter. Archimedes had proven that the volume and surface area of the sphere are two thirds that of the cylinder including its bases.  He had even requested that his tomb be surmounted by a sphere and a cylinder.

However, most people will only need to know this on a math test.  On the other hand every culture has shown a need for an accurate value of Pi.  No one wants to travel across the arc of a bridge that almost spans the width of a river from one side to the other. No one wants to walk under an arch of a doorway that is precariously balanced between door posts because it is almost wide enough to fit safely.  Even if one does not need to know the value of π directly, he has an indirect need that others know it such as architects.

The detail of 153 fish seems too specific to be insignificant. 

 

More from Wikipedia

 Pythagoras of Samos

c. 570 – c. 495 BC)[3][4] was an Ionian Greek philosopher, mathematician, and has been credited as the founder of the movement calle d Pythagoreanism. … He was born on the island of Samos, and traveled, visiting Egypt and Greece, and maybe India, and in 520 BC returned to Samos.[5] Around 530 BC, he moved to Croton, in Magna Graecia, and there established some kind of school or guild. ...

Pythagoras (c. 570 – c. 495 BC) as it is he who, by tradition, is credited with its first recorded proof. ... 

Magna Graecia (Latin meaning "Great Greece", is the name of the coastal areas of Southern Italy on the Tarentine Gulf that were extensively populated by Greek settlers; particularly the Achaean settlements of Croton, … The settlers who began arriving in the 8th century BC brought with them their Hellenic civilization, which was to leave a lasting imprint in Italy,


 

 

Euclid

 (300 BCE), sometimes called Euclid of Alexandria,
 was a Greek mathematician, often referred to as the "father of geometry". ... 

Euclid's Elements has been referred to as the most successful[5][6] and influential[7] textbook ever written. Being first set in type in Venice in 1482, it is one of the very earliest mathematical works to be printed after the invention of the printing press and was estimated by Carl Benjamin Boyer to be second only to the Bible in the number of editions published,[7] with the number reaching well over one thousand.[8] For centuries, when the quadrivium was included in the curriculum of all university students, knowledge of at least part of Euclid's Elements was required of all students. Not until the 20th century, by which time its content was universally taught through other school textbooks, did it cease to be considered something all educated people had read.[9]

 


 

Notes:

One Wikipedia web page has Archimedes' third proposition on Pi mislabeled as his second. Perhaps the mislabeling was based on the error below.

Quote:

http://web.archive.org/web/20151124100810/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_of_a_Circle

Proposition two

Proposition two states: ...

This proposition could not have been placed by Archimedes, for it relies on the outcome of the third proposition.[3]

This argument has no foundation. An examination of different cultures reveals how values and priorities vary.  While we might value having things numbered according to historical sequence there is no overarching reason why others would need to value that more than some other standard. Standards vary.  When personal computers were first becoming popular one computer geek made famous the line, “One thing nice about standards is that there are so many.”  Individuals think differently from others.  Cultures separated by thousands of years, do so even more.

There are a host of reasons why Archimedes might have desired to number his work on Pi as his Third Proposition.  My personal favorite guess is that since Pi has a value of about 3, he thought it appropriate that it be placed 3rd. For Archimedes the number 3 might have held some special personal importance that made, in his mind, a certain appropriateness for his work on Pi. 

On the other hand, he may have started to explain his second proposition to someone who already was aware of his work on Pi, but after he started writing down his second proposition he later decided to include his work on Pi for the benefit of others who did not know about it.  The inclusion of Pi could have been an afterthought.   Rather than discard expensive sheepskin, and valuable labor, and start over he just decided to append his previous work.

The Greek tended to place a certain importance on numbers that may seem odd to our standards.  Consider the early Church Fathers and the number 22 in regards to the Canon of the Old Testament.

Many of the early Church Fathers placed some importance on the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet. When listing the books that belonged in the Old Testament, they stated that there were 22 books in it.  How they numbered them seems quite forced in order to arrive at the number 22. Not all the books always made the cut in order to get the total to equal 22.  Finally, St. Augustine who does include the full Old Testament canon found himself needing to double the total to “44 books” in order to get them all included. But, even then he seems to have the need for the total to equal a product of those 22 letters, 2 x 22 = 44.

St. Athanasius in The Thirty-Ninth Festal Letter, Jurgens 1:341, PP 791
“Old Testament … 22 books”

St. Cyril of Jerusalem in Catechetical Lectures, 4:34, Jurgens 1:352, PP 819
“Old Testament … 22 books”

St. Hilary of Poitiers, Jurgens 1:383, PP 882
“Old Testament … 22 books”

St Gregory of Nazianz, Poems, Jurgens 2:42
“twelve historical books … therefore, 22 old books,
Corresponding to the number of the Hebrew letters.”

St. Jerome, The Galeatic or Helmeted Prologue, Jurgens 2:207, PP 1397,
“ … there are 22 letters ... so too there are 22 books”

St. Augustin of Hippo, Christian Instruction, 2.8.13, Jurgens 3:53, PP 1585.
“ … 44 books the authority of the Old Testament is concluded.”

St. John Damascene in The Source of Knowledge, 3.4.17,  Jurgens 3:340, PP 2373
“ … 22 books, one for each letter of the Hebrew language”

(Jurgens  Book# : Page #, PP = paragraph #)

 

 

Continue ...
Fish

 

Sections :

Introduction
Church Fathers : Sts. Jerome, Augustine, Gregory the Great, Cyril A.
No Reason ?
Why Church Fathers’ Answers Could Not Be John’s
Problems with Square Root of 3 Answer
Context Points to the Answer : An Explanation That Works
Archimedes : Context of Time and Place
Greeks and Wisdom
Fish
Calculating the Measure of the Fish
John’s Purpose
Why Church Fathers Did Not (could not?) Give John’s Idea
Conclusion

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